In his engrossing and enlightening debut,
Blake Healy shares the story
of his unusual gift.
Having been born with the ability to see angels and
demons as regularly and clearly as anything else in waking life, his
journey has been one of unique perspective and unique challenge. It is
an amazingly clear view into the realm of the spirit, as well as a true
testamant to the power of living a life in pursuit of deeper
relationship with God
. "I was at a party earlier today.
I don’t
really like parties. I was sitting on a couch, doing my best to look
like I was enjoying myself, passing the time by observing my fellow
attendees.
Situations like these can get complicated. There were about
three-dozen people mingling about, each with a personal angel. Each of
those angels was interceding for, protecting, or otherwise blessing
their person in their own unique fashion.
Some were dancing around the
room and worshiping; others were massaging the shoulders of their
people, whispering words of encouragement in their ear; while some
simply stood, patiently listening to the myriad layers of conversation.
Each person in the room was surrounded by, what I call, their
spiritual ecosystem. It’s usually a combination of giftings, thoughts,
and God’s presence - the spiritual surroundings that are cultivated by
physical and mental life. Some looked like they were cloaked
in a thick blanket of warm light, crowns on their heads and swords in
their hands.
One guy I knew on the far side of the room was covered head
to toe in dense green foliage, with a ring of flowing water swirling
around his head. It seemed strange, until I remembered that he spent
hours playing worship music on his guitar alone in his room.
That kind
of worship always attracts life. The air was buzzing with
thoughts. Insecurities darted through the air like shadowy mice looking
for a hole to hide in. The general buzz of excitement and joy was
hovering over the crowd like calm slow-motion fireworks.
I
could see a few scattered worries hanging over a few people’s heads -
swelling dollar bill signs and abstract images of unfamiliar relatives,
each representing the telltale signs of money woes and family trouble,
respectively. A girl was wandering through the crowd with a giant smoky
heart following close behind, every ignored glance and awkward greeting
chipping away at its cheery form.
There were a fair number of
demons weaving their way through the crowd, about six, which is pretty
normal for a crowd of this size.
They snatched at the insecure thoughts,
trying to get a grip on the fears that would other-wise be easily
overcome or ignored. One had latched itself on a middle-aged man’s back,
digging at the bald part of his head with long clawed fingers. It was
probably trying to increase the discomfort he must have felt from being
in a group of mostly younger people
As you can see, it doesn’t take
much for this to get very complicated, not to mention crowded. Add in
the angels that were just hanging around the room unattached to anyone
in particular, the liquid gold presence of God that was sweeping through
the room in time with the mu-sic, the prophetic words falling from
heaven for people in the room, and all the various blessings and curses
floating through people’s conversations; and you can imagine how aimless
this would be without the Holy Spirit as a guide
."
-Excerpt from "The Veil" Full to the brim
with amazing stories and stunning experiences, "The Veil" is an
incredible look into the world of the spirit
Monday, August 19, 2013
In his engrossing and enlightening debut, Blake Healy shares the story of his unusual gift. Having been born with the ability to see angels and demons as regularly and clearly as anything else in waking life, his journey has been one of unique perspective and unique challenge. It is an amazingly clear view into the realm of the spirit, as well as a true testamant to the power of living a life in pursuit of deeper relationship with God. "I was at a party earlier today. I don’t really like parties. I was sitting on a couch, doing my best to look like I was enjoying myself, passing the time by observing my fellow attendees. Situations like these can get complicated. There were about three-dozen people mingling about, each with a personal angel. Each of those angels was interceding for, protecting, or otherwise blessing their person in their own unique fashion. Some were dancing around the room and worshiping; others were massaging the shoulders of their people, whispering words of encouragement in their ear; while some simply stood, patiently listening to the myriad layers of conversation. Each person in the room was surrounded by, what I call, their spiritual ecosystem. It’s usually a combination of giftings, thoughts, and God’s presence - the spiritual surroundings that are cultivated by physical and mental life. Some looked like they were cloaked in a thick blanket of warm light, crowns on their heads and swords in their hands. One guy I knew on the far side of the room was covered head to toe in dense green foliage, with a ring of flowing water swirling around his head. It seemed strange, until I remembered that he spent hours playing worship music on his guitar alone in his room. That kind of worship always attracts life. The air was buzzing with thoughts. Insecurities darted through the air like shadowy mice looking for a hole to hide in. The general buzz of excitement and joy was hovering over the crowd like calm slow-motion fireworks. I could see a few scattered worries hanging over a few people’s heads - swelling dollar bill signs and abstract images of unfamiliar relatives, each representing the telltale signs of money woes and family trouble, respectively. A girl was wandering through the crowd with a giant smoky heart following close behind, every ignored glance and awkward greeting chipping away at its cheery form. There were a fair number of demons weaving their way through the crowd, about six, which is pretty normal for a crowd of this size. They snatched at the insecure thoughts, trying to get a grip on the fears that would other-wise be easily overcome or ignored. One had latched itself on a middle-aged man’s back, digging at the bald part of his head with long clawed fingers. It was probably trying to increase the discomfort he must have felt from being in a group of mostly younger people. As you can see, it doesn’t take much for this to get very complicated, not to mention crowded. Add in the angels that were just hanging around the room unattached to anyone in particular, the liquid gold presence of God that was sweeping through the room in time with the mu-sic, the prophetic words falling from heaven for people in the room, and all the various blessings and curses floating through people’s conversations; and you can imagine how aimless this would be without the Holy Spirit as a guide." -Excerpt from "The Veil" Full to the brim with amazing stories and stunning experiences, "The Veil" is an incredible look into the world of the spirit.
In his engrossing and enlightening debut, Blake Healy
shares the story of his unusual gift.
Having been born with the ability
to see angels and demons as regularly and clearly as anything else in
waking life, his journey has been one of unique perspective and unique
challenge.
It is an amazingly clear view into the realm of the spirit,
as well as a true testamant to the power of living a life in pursuit of
deeper relationship with God. "I was at a party earlier today.
I
don’t really like parties. I was sitting on a couch, doing my best to
look like I was enjoying myself, passing the time by observing my fellow
attendees.
Situations like these can get complicated. There were about
three-dozen people mingling about, each
In his engrossing and enlightening debut, Blake Healy shares the story
of his unusual gift. Having been born with the ability to see angels and
demons as regularly and clearly as anything else in waking life, his
journey has been one of unique perspective and unique challenge. It is
an amazingly clear view into the realm of the spirit, as well as a true
testamant to the power of living a life in pursuit of deeper
relationship with God. "I was at a party earlier today. I don’t
really like parties. I was sitting on a couch, doing my best to look
like I was enjoying myself, passing the time by observing my fellow
attendees. Situations like these can get complicated. There were about
three-dozen people mingling about, each with a personal angel. Each of
those angels was interceding for, protecting, or otherwise blessing
their person in their own unique fashion. Some were dancing around the
room and worshiping; others were massaging the shoulders of their
people, whispering words of encouragement in their ear; while some
simply stood, patiently listening to the myriad layers of conversation.
Each person in the room was surrounded by, what I call, their
spiritual ecosystem. It’s usually a combination of giftings, thoughts,
and God’s presence - the spiritual surroundings that are cultivated by
physical and mental life. Some looked like they were cloaked
in a thick blanket of warm light, crowns on their heads and swords in
their hands. One guy I knew on the far side of the room was covered head
to toe in dense green foliage, with a ring of flowing water swirling
around his head. It seemed strange, until I remembered that he spent
hours playing worship music on his guitar alone in his room. That kind
of worship always attracts life. The air was buzzing with
thoughts. Insecurities darted through the air like shadowy mice looking
for a hole to hide in. The general buzz of excitement and joy was
hovering over the crowd like calm slow-motion fireworks. I
could see a few scattered worries hanging over a few people’s heads -
swelling dollar bill signs and abstract images of unfamiliar relatives,
each representing the telltale signs of money woes and family trouble,
respectively. A girl was wandering through the crowd with a giant smoky
heart following close behind, every ignored glance and awkward greeting
chipping away at its cheery form. There were a fair number of
demons weaving their way through the crowd, about six, which is pretty
normal for a crowd of this size. They snatched at the insecure thoughts,
trying to get a grip on the fears that would other-wise be easily
overcome or ignored. One had latched itself on a middle-aged man’s back,
digging at the bald part of his head with long clawed fingers. It was
probably trying to increase the discomfort he must have felt from being
in a group of mostly younger people. As you can see, it doesn’t take
much for this to get very complicated, not to mention crowded. Add in
the angels that were just hanging around the room unattached to anyone
in particular, the liquid gold presence of God that was sweeping through
the room in time with the mu-sic, the prophetic words falling from
heaven for people in the room, and all the various blessings and curses
floating through people’s conversations; and you can imagine how aimless
this would be without the Holy Spirit as a guide."
-Excerpt from "The Veil" Full to the brim
with amazing stories and stunning experiences,
"The Veil" is an
incredible look into the world of the spirit.with a personal angel. Each of
those angels was interceding for, protecting, or otherwise blessing
their person in their own unique fashion. Some were dancing around the
room and worshiping; others were massaging the shoulders of their
people, whispering words of encouragement in their ear; while some
simply stood, patiently listening to the myriad layers of conversation.
Each person in the room was surrounded by, what I call, their
spiritual ecosystem. It’s usually a combination of giftings, thoughts,
and God’s presence - the spiritual surroundings that are cultivated by
physical and mental life. Some looked like they were cloaked
in a thick blanket of warm light, crowns on their heads and swords in
their hands. One guy I knew on the far side of the room was covered head
to toe in dense green foliage, with a ring of flowing water swirling
around his head. It seemed strange, until I remembered that he spent
hours playing worship music on his guitar alone in his room. That kind
of worship always attracts life. The air was buzzing with
thoughts. Insecurities darted through the air like shadowy mice looking
for a hole to hide in. The general buzz of excitement and joy was
hovering over the crowd like calm slow-motion fireworks. I
could see a few scattered worries hanging over a few people’s heads -
swelling dollar bill signs and abstract images of unfamiliar relatives,
each representing the telltale signs of money woes and family trouble,
respectively. A girl was wandering through the crowd with a giant smoky
heart following close behind, every ignored glance and awkward greeting
chipping away at its cheery form. There were a fair number of
demons weaving their way through the crowd, about six, which is pretty
normal for a crowd of this size. They snatched at the insecure thoughts,
trying to get a grip on the fears that would other-wise be easily
overcome or ignored. One had latched itself on a middle-aged man’s back,
digging at the bald part of his head with long clawed fingers. It was
probably trying to increase the discomfort he must have felt from being
in a group of mostly younger people. As you can see, it doesn’t take
much for this to get very complicated, not to mention crowded. Add in
the angels that were just hanging around the room unattached to anyone
in particular, the liquid gold presence of God that was sweeping through
the room in time with the mu-sic, the prophetic words falling from
heaven for people in the room, and all the various blessings and curses
floating through people’s conversations; and you can imagine how aimless
this would be without the Holy Spirit as a guide."
-Excerpt from "The Veil" Full to the brim
with amazing stories and stunning experiences, "The Veil" is an
incredible look into the world of the spirit.
working4christ2 catholic answers forum --- How do you know your sins are forgiven?
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#46
Jun 22, '13, 11:08 am
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Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven?
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The binding and losing authority of the Church is the power to legislate, not to forgive sins. And sorry, but that authority does not extend outside of the Church that Christ founded. And, since we have now arrived at this issue, there is no one in the Pentecostal faith community that has the authority to either legislate or forgive sins. That authority resides in those who have Apostolic succession and is therefore limited to the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. Authority is handed down, not assumed by just anyone who wishes they had it.
__________________
"Let
the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the
contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then,
that is the degree he has and no more." - St. Francis of Assisi
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#47
Jun 22, '13, 11:20 am
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Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven?
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#48
Jun 26, '13, 12:50 pm
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Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven?
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Looking at your posts-- i think your end game was what you said only the roman catholic organization ( and it associations) has the authority.. and every one else is deceived? interesting -- where i continually read here that catholics on this forum-- are struggling in sin-- --- and all the efforts taught are not working.. Where as in other groups -- i find more people -- living in the powere and presence of the Holy Spirit-- and not being troubled by personal sin-- they call on the grace of Jesus and the powere of the Holy Spirit-- and they actually get freed--Huh, who would have guessed that faith worked this way also 
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#49
Jun 26, '13, 1:09 pm
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Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven?
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__________________
Jose All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: He who does not gather with Me scatters (Luke 11:23). St. Seraphim of Sarov 
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#50
Jun 26, '13, 2:01 pm
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Re: How do you know your sins are forgiven?
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EvangelCatholic, With all due respect, what I wrote is contrary to Catholic Church understanding, or yours? I will repost what I wrote to you again, below. Please explain yourself why is it contrary in your understanding and how am I setting back Ecumenism a 1000 years, when the Catholic Church has taught the same from the beginning?  SavingGrace, Regarding "Ecumenism": Then why don't you go to the Lutheran Church, see a pastor there, for your next confession? if you don't, are you yourself setting back Ecumenism a 1000 years? I rest my case here, but like those infomercial say: "But wait there is more"  SavingGrace, All though you are afraid to say the truth or want to be politically correct, you know very well your sins may not be forgiven by Jesus Christ, if you go to confession at a Lutheran Church and the Catholic Church won't want you to go either. So is the Catholic Church itself is setting back Ecumenism a 1000 years as well for not wanting you to go and confess your sins at a Lutheran Church? Let me share a secret with you, the word "Ecumenism" should not even exist! Why? Because Our Lord only established one Church, the Catholic Church and no other. Amen Not saying the Truth or by being "politically correct" is being mildly Luke warm, and what did Jesus Christ say about being Luke Warm. Ufam Tobie SavingGrace, Only we Catholics are sure to have our sins forgiven or not in the confessional by a Catholic Priest, and by no other Church. As you know, they don't have the fulness of the faith to receive absolution. that we do and this is only through the Grace of God that we do, handed on down to us by Our Lord to the Apostles and the successors of the Apostles to our local Parish Priests. EO, and some Anglicans may confess, receive absolution by their priests and do penance, however, it is only a copy of what the Catholic Church has done from the beginning with Authority from Jesus Christ to do so. I know you think I am wrong for say a "copy" and not knowing that their sins are truly forgiven, perhaps they are but does one really want to take that risk. Tell me, if you could not find a Catholic Church nearby to receive absolution from a Catholic Priest, would you enter an Anglican Church that was nearby, for your absolution? I think not, for one you're not Anglican and because you truly know, it is only a copy without the fulness, without truly knowing that your sins our forgiven you/us. We should not ask if "Are you given a sign? Is it a feeling?" What is that. We should tell them the Truth! For many don't no the truth and those that do, well, it is their free will to choose to come home or not. And I am not saying that the Protestants are not saved, because they are saved by the Catholic Church. Ufam Tobie |
Saturday, August 17, 2013
catholic answers forum 4 dummies Non-Catholics often point to 2Tim 3:16-17 as evidence for “sola Scriptura”- working4christ2
2Tim 3:16-17 - A Non-Catholic Perspective
Non-Catholics often point to 2Tim 3:16-17 as evidence for “sola
Scriptura” (often times referred to as “SS” for short). And recently it
was shown to me by someone as exactly such evidence for SS , stating
that since Scripture says that Scripture makes us complete, that
therefore “Scripture is fully sufficient and contains everything
necessary that God wants us to know in terms of doctrine and theology…if
something makes us complete, then we don’t need anything else”. He said that if we just look at the “plain language of the text”, we can see what Scripture is plainly telling us.
So, I looked at 2Tim 3:16-17 to make sure what he said is the same thing that Scripture says. 2Tim3:16-17 says, “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
By my questions to these types of claims are, “Where are you seeing Scripture ALONE? It looks to me that Scripture is “profitable”…“that a man…may be complete”. I do not see where it says that Scripture ALONE makes man complete all by itself. Where are you seeing that?"
I want to point out that nowhere does that verse (or ANY verse in Scripture) indicate that Scripture is the ONLY ingredient, so to speak, in what makes man complete…but that Scripture is profitable…that a man may be complete. And AMEN, by the way, Catholics believe that 100%! In the same line of thought, exactly as Paul is explaining it to Timothy, I can apply this to my physical person. Having an arm also makes me complete (physically), but does that mean that my arm, ALONE, makes me complete physically? No, it doesn’t. To be complete physically, I also need a head, a body, legs, the other arm… My arm is profitable…that I may be complete…but my arm is not the ONLY thing that makes me complete.
I also want to point out another critical point. If the language in 2Tim is evidence for “sola Scriptura”, then why isn’t James 1:4 evidence for “sola perseverance” (or endurance, or steadfastness…depending on the translation)? Let’s look at the passage in James and see what it says: “[2] My brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of any kind, consider it nothing but joy, [3] because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance; [4] and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing.” Verse 4 tells us, in an even more explicit language than found in 2Tim, that endurance (perseverance, steadfastness) makes us “complete, lacking in nothing”.
Now, no one believes that James teaches “sola perseverance”, (at least no one that I know of) but that’s the logical conclusion we have to come to if we say 2Tim teaches “sola Scriptura” based on the language used.
But, some may be very quick to point out something…even though Scripture says that endurance makes us complete, lacking in nothing, the “endurance” is only part of the picture…AND it flows from the testing of faith. So it isn’t the endurance ALONE that completes us. “AMEN!”, I say. But then they go on to say that, since the endurance flowed from a faith being tested…that it is the “faith that saves us”. More correctly, it is the” faith being tested”…or a “working faith” that saves us. That passage does not say ONLY that “faith produces endurance”, but “the testing of your faith produces endurance”. (And, AMEN to that…Catholics believe in salvation by faith!) But we must also not ignore the obvious here. Since we are saying that the plain language in 2Tim is evidence for “sola Scriptura”, we must look at the plain language here in James. James 1 does tell me that having my faith tested will produce endurance, but it also says that it is “endurance”, not faith, that makes me “complete, lacking in nothing”. So, according to James 1, what makes us complete…faith, or endurance? Scripture says “endurance” makes us complete. That is the plain reading of the text.
But, let’s take this reasoning provided for James, and apply it to 2Tim. The non-Catholic says that, even though Scripture says endurance makes us complete, that it is really what leads to endurance. Likewise, even though Scripture says Scripture can make a man complete, it is really what leads to Scripture.
2Tim says Scripture is “profitable…that a man may be complete”. So then, what REALLY makes the man complete? By the above reasoning, the answer would be whatever leads to Scripture. So what leads to Scripture…what is its source? Ultimately it comes from God…the Word of God…which Scripture tells us is not all written, but is actually a Person (cf. John 1), Who cannot be contained in a book (cff. John 1 and John 20:30, 21:25). So, 2Tim still does not teach “sola Scriptura” as was asserted and within that line of reason. It teaches “sola Word of God”, (AMEN!) which we know means more than what is written because the Word of God is more than what is written…He is a Living Person…the Christ…God.
But, in reality, that STILL isn’t what 2Tim is saying (even though it’s true that the Word of God, the Christ, makes us complete). 2Tim is saying exactly what it says, that “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”. And taken in proper context, Paul is actually only talking about the OT (the Septuagint, or Greek/Alexandrian Jews’ translation, to be exact)…because he is speaking of the Scriptures* that Timothy has "learned in [his] youth" (2Tim 3:1-17).**
If anyone claims 2Tim 3:16-17 for teaching “sola Scriptura”, by the very logic and reasoning they would use to support that claim, they must also logically conclude that James 1 teaches “sola perseverance”. Otherwise, they are being logically inconsistent. And always keep in mind that nowhere, ever, does Scripture make the claim that the ONLY Word of God we have been given is ONLY what is written in Scripture. In fact, Scripture explicitly and implicitly states the contrary (Lk 10:16, 2Thess 2:15, Jn 21:25, 2Tim 2:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rom 10:17, Mk 16:15, etc…cff. Mt 7:24, Mt 16:18, Jn 14:16, Mt 28:19-20, etc…).
And nowhere, ever, is there anything in Scripture that says or implies that what was passed down orally has ceased or been lost…leaving only what is written. Such a thought or belief [that the oral and Apostolic teachings have been lost, and the written Scriptures are all that are left] is a “tradition of man” (one that didn’t show up until AFTER the 1500’s) …and anyone claiming such should be called to task to provide their evidence, or explain why they think it is okay to believe this “doctrine of man”.
*, **(Incidentally...such reasoning as shown above for 2Tim and James 1:4 also contradicts the belief on "sola fide", or "salvation by faith alone"...because if Scripture makes us complete (in the "complete" sense that he was arguing for) and equipped for every good work, then what room is there for the "faith alone", which leads to good works? Afterall, I don't need faith to do those works if Scriture has already made me completely equipped for them, do I?“But WAIT!”, one might say. “2Tim says that Scripture makes you wise for salvation through faith…”. Yes, that’s right. It says, “[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, [15] and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [17] so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” So, taken in context, 2Tim does not teach “sola Scriptura” at all, but “Scripture through faith in Jesus Christ”, which is neither “sola Scriptura”, nor “sola fide”. And as friend of mine points out, verse 14-15 speaks of oral instruction Timothy received. So taken together with v16 and 17...it is indeed not Scripture alone, but the oral teachings handed down to him, believed on the basis of whom it was that handed it to him, AND the Scriptures (Oral Tradition + Scripture, by the Authority of those who teach it) …just like the Bible teaches. The whole passage takes on another meaning when including verse 14-15.)
So, I looked at 2Tim 3:16-17 to make sure what he said is the same thing that Scripture says. 2Tim3:16-17 says, “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
By my questions to these types of claims are, “Where are you seeing Scripture ALONE? It looks to me that Scripture is “profitable”…“that a man…may be complete”. I do not see where it says that Scripture ALONE makes man complete all by itself. Where are you seeing that?"
I want to point out that nowhere does that verse (or ANY verse in Scripture) indicate that Scripture is the ONLY ingredient, so to speak, in what makes man complete…but that Scripture is profitable…that a man may be complete. And AMEN, by the way, Catholics believe that 100%! In the same line of thought, exactly as Paul is explaining it to Timothy, I can apply this to my physical person. Having an arm also makes me complete (physically), but does that mean that my arm, ALONE, makes me complete physically? No, it doesn’t. To be complete physically, I also need a head, a body, legs, the other arm… My arm is profitable…that I may be complete…but my arm is not the ONLY thing that makes me complete.
I also want to point out another critical point. If the language in 2Tim is evidence for “sola Scriptura”, then why isn’t James 1:4 evidence for “sola perseverance” (or endurance, or steadfastness…depending on the translation)? Let’s look at the passage in James and see what it says: “[2] My brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of any kind, consider it nothing but joy, [3] because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance; [4] and let endurance have its full effect, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking in nothing.” Verse 4 tells us, in an even more explicit language than found in 2Tim, that endurance (perseverance, steadfastness) makes us “complete, lacking in nothing”.
Now, no one believes that James teaches “sola perseverance”, (at least no one that I know of) but that’s the logical conclusion we have to come to if we say 2Tim teaches “sola Scriptura” based on the language used.
But, some may be very quick to point out something…even though Scripture says that endurance makes us complete, lacking in nothing, the “endurance” is only part of the picture…AND it flows from the testing of faith. So it isn’t the endurance ALONE that completes us. “AMEN!”, I say. But then they go on to say that, since the endurance flowed from a faith being tested…that it is the “faith that saves us”. More correctly, it is the” faith being tested”…or a “working faith” that saves us. That passage does not say ONLY that “faith produces endurance”, but “the testing of your faith produces endurance”. (And, AMEN to that…Catholics believe in salvation by faith!) But we must also not ignore the obvious here. Since we are saying that the plain language in 2Tim is evidence for “sola Scriptura”, we must look at the plain language here in James. James 1 does tell me that having my faith tested will produce endurance, but it also says that it is “endurance”, not faith, that makes me “complete, lacking in nothing”. So, according to James 1, what makes us complete…faith, or endurance? Scripture says “endurance” makes us complete. That is the plain reading of the text.
But, let’s take this reasoning provided for James, and apply it to 2Tim. The non-Catholic says that, even though Scripture says endurance makes us complete, that it is really what leads to endurance. Likewise, even though Scripture says Scripture can make a man complete, it is really what leads to Scripture.
2Tim says Scripture is “profitable…that a man may be complete”. So then, what REALLY makes the man complete? By the above reasoning, the answer would be whatever leads to Scripture. So what leads to Scripture…what is its source? Ultimately it comes from God…the Word of God…which Scripture tells us is not all written, but is actually a Person (cf. John 1), Who cannot be contained in a book (cff. John 1 and John 20:30, 21:25). So, 2Tim still does not teach “sola Scriptura” as was asserted and within that line of reason. It teaches “sola Word of God”, (AMEN!) which we know means more than what is written because the Word of God is more than what is written…He is a Living Person…the Christ…God.
But, in reality, that STILL isn’t what 2Tim is saying (even though it’s true that the Word of God, the Christ, makes us complete). 2Tim is saying exactly what it says, that “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work”. And taken in proper context, Paul is actually only talking about the OT (the Septuagint, or Greek/Alexandrian Jews’ translation, to be exact)…because he is speaking of the Scriptures* that Timothy has "learned in [his] youth" (2Tim 3:1-17).**
If anyone claims 2Tim 3:16-17 for teaching “sola Scriptura”, by the very logic and reasoning they would use to support that claim, they must also logically conclude that James 1 teaches “sola perseverance”. Otherwise, they are being logically inconsistent. And always keep in mind that nowhere, ever, does Scripture make the claim that the ONLY Word of God we have been given is ONLY what is written in Scripture. In fact, Scripture explicitly and implicitly states the contrary (Lk 10:16, 2Thess 2:15, Jn 21:25, 2Tim 2:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rom 10:17, Mk 16:15, etc…cff. Mt 7:24, Mt 16:18, Jn 14:16, Mt 28:19-20, etc…).
And nowhere, ever, is there anything in Scripture that says or implies that what was passed down orally has ceased or been lost…leaving only what is written. Such a thought or belief [that the oral and Apostolic teachings have been lost, and the written Scriptures are all that are left] is a “tradition of man” (one that didn’t show up until AFTER the 1500’s) …and anyone claiming such should be called to task to provide their evidence, or explain why they think it is okay to believe this “doctrine of man”.
*, **(Incidentally...such reasoning as shown above for 2Tim and James 1:4 also contradicts the belief on "sola fide", or "salvation by faith alone"...because if Scripture makes us complete (in the "complete" sense that he was arguing for) and equipped for every good work, then what room is there for the "faith alone", which leads to good works? Afterall, I don't need faith to do those works if Scriture has already made me completely equipped for them, do I?“But WAIT!”, one might say. “2Tim says that Scripture makes you wise for salvation through faith…”. Yes, that’s right. It says, “[14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, [15] and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [17] so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” So, taken in context, 2Tim does not teach “sola Scriptura” at all, but “Scripture through faith in Jesus Christ”, which is neither “sola Scriptura”, nor “sola fide”. And as friend of mine points out, verse 14-15 speaks of oral instruction Timothy received. So taken together with v16 and 17...it is indeed not Scripture alone, but the oral teachings handed down to him, believed on the basis of whom it was that handed it to him, AND the Scriptures (Oral Tradition + Scripture, by the Authority of those who teach it) …just like the Bible teaches. The whole passage takes on another meaning when including verse 14-15.)
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"A Humble Servant's Catholic Blog": 2Tim 3:16-17 - A Non-Catholic Perspective
"A Humble Servant's Catholic Blog": 2Tim 3:16-17 - A Non-Catholic Perspective: Non-Catholics often point to 2Tim 3:16-17 as evidence for “sola Scriptura” (often times referred to as “SS” for short). And recently it was ...
catholic answers forum Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura working4christ2 << working4christ2
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#1
Jul 11, '13, 6:55 am
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Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
I was discussing sola scriptura with someone and they brought up a
point that I really did not have an answer for. Like the traditions of
sacraments - they have biblical basis. So his question to me was then
how is it not by scripture alone if its biblical. I tried to explain
that it more refers to excluding the traditions and makes only written
scripture adequate. He used Matthew 4:4 & II Timothy 3:16 as a
defense for it...
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#2
Jul 11, '13, 6:59 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
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#4
Jul 11, '13, 7:24 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
Lots of things are "not just written". But what your friend is going
to tell you is that BECAUSE it is written, that it came from the
"written" ALONE...and then just got passed down after the fact.
You friend asked a ridiculous question: "How is it not by scripture alone if its biblical?". The question for your friend is, what makes him/her think that because something is written in Scripture, that the doctrine associated with it is based on Sola Scriptura? Here's something you can present to your friend regarding SS: If everything we need to know about our Faith is found in Scripture, where in Scripture does it tell us which books belong in the Bible? Is knowing which ancient writings really are "Scripture" necessary? And if we just take it on the word of our ancestors as to which books belong in the Bible, then we are going outside of Scripture to accept a necessary Truth, aren't we? If the list of books that belong in the Bible is NOT infallible...then do we have any assurance at all that the Bible really is God's Word, or must we necessarily accept that some of them might not be God's Word, AND that some of God's Word might not be in there...since it's only a "fallible" list?
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#5
Jul 11, '13, 7:28 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
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Husband to my wonderful "mrs ahs" and daddy to 4 beauties Visit my blog: "A Humble Servant's Catholic Blog"
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#6
Jul 11, '13, 7:30 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
Mat 4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread
alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness Mat 4:4 is being taken so out of context it's not even funny. In Mat4, Satan is tempting Jesus in the desert, and in v.3 just tried to get Jesus to turn rocks into loaves of bread. Jesus is speaking about sustaining the body and the soul, but is nowhere talking about scripture being the sole basis for faith. So, there's a contextual problem here. If he wants to equate the 'word that proceeds from the mouth of God' with the written word of scripture, I would remind him what John says in the last verse of his gospel, (Jn 21:25) But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. So, by that standard, everything that Jesus did (and said) is not written down. In 2Tim, it says scripture is profitable. It doesn't say it's the ONLY source for teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness. Your friend is reading something into scripture that simply isn't there.
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#7
Jul 11, '13, 7:36 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
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#9
Jul 11, '13, 8:10 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
Consciously or not, he's equivocating on the phrase "biblical basis."
When a Fundamentalist Protestant uses that term, he usually means that the Bible is a comprehensive manual of Christian doctrine, in which anyone can look up a given item and understand it for himself. When a Catholic uses the term "biblical basis" (which I don't, to avoid confusion), he hopefully means that the Church's Magisterium uses information from the Bible in its authentic teaching on a given matter. This is not at all the same thing.
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#10
Jul 11, '13, 8:12 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
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#11
Jul 11, '13, 8:21 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
I could name some things, but what's the point? Someone believing in Sola Sciptura will reject them anyway.
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#12
Jul 11, '13, 8:30 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
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Another example: Gospel of Mark....ask him where is it that Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark? There is no such verse in the Bible...so how does he know Mark authored the gospel of Mark? Through Tradition. Another question: How would he determine what is truth and what is not truth?Where does the Bible teach this? From:1John 4..... Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world…………..6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood. Notice the passage does not say read the Bible...but listen or obey an apostle. And use the example of St. Paul here: Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. I think you can get more insights from this article: http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html Hope this helps.
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#13
Jul 11, '13, 8:33 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
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16 All scripture is inspired by God and is[a] useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Notice here...he ignored the previous passages. If you start at v14, this changes the whole context: 2 Timothy 3:14-17 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is[a] useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. Notice how the v14 speaks of oral instructions. So it is not scripture alone.
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#14
Jul 11, '13, 9:01 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
1 Timothy 3:15 "if I am delayed, you will know how
people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the
church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
2 Thess 2:15 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter." 1 Cor 11:2 "Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you." Matthew 16:19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” You might want to ask your friend: If the Bible is our only source for doctrine, why does the Bible say the Church is the foundation of the truth? If Scripture is the only standard, then how do we know which books go in the Bible, sense scripture nowhere tells us? Why do you rely on the judgement of the Catholic Church by using the new testament books they compiled? How did the Churches govern themselves for the several hundred years before there was a complete bible cannon? Why does scripture never actually say that scripture alone is the rule of faith, why does Paul always bring up tradition? Where does the Bible say that each person has authority to determine what the Bible teaches?
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#15
Jul 11, '13, 9:26 am
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Re: Stumped by Protestant on Sola Scriptura
The Bible itself acknowledges that it is not comprehensive. Also, many things with sola scriptura are not expressed in the Bible: *Where does it explicitly name the Trinity? *Where does it say only written tradition is important, i.e. that one only needs the Bible? *Where does it say these 66 books constitute the Bible, but most certainly NOT Tobit, Judith, 1/2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, these 6 chapters of Esther, and these 3 chapters of Daniel?
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i believe saint paul was talking about O.T. scripture and it's interpretation.
just as in romans ch 10:8,9,10.. it is interpreted as a salvation test, and a text for the concept and the context, of being "saved"
by scripture application alone, and this is used in conjunction with-- galations, Oh you foolish Galations, who has bewiched you, did you receive the Holy Spirit by works , or by faith